What You’ll Learn In Episode 190:

Has the amount of sex you have in your relationship gone down over the years? Did you know that while many people think this is normal, it does not have to happen?

In this episode, Kevin & Céline talk with authors John David Mann and Ana Gabriel Mann about why that is and how you can fix it today. John & Ana share their knowledge and wisdom from 25 years of marriage as well as Ana’s career as a marriage coach. This episode is loaded with gems you can put into action right now.

Links From Today’s Show:

John David Mann is co-author of more than 30 books, including four New York Times bestsellers and five national bestsellers. His classic 2008 parable The Go-Giver (coauthored with Bob Burg) earned the 2017 Living Now Book Award’s “Evergreen Medal” for its “contribution to positive global change.”

Ana Gabriel Mann, M.A., earned her degree in clinical psychology before going on to serve as an educator, therapist, corporate trainer, speaker, and coach. She currently coaches Go-Giver Marriage clients and leads the Go-Giver Marriage Coaches Training Program, training coaches from around the globe.

For more from John & Ana, click the link: https://gogivermarriage.com

Kevin Anthony 0:11
Welcome to the Love Lab podcast a safe place to get real about sex. Whether you’re a man, woman, single, or couple, this is the show for you.

Céline Remy 0:20
We are your hosts, Kevin, Anthony, and Céline Remy and we are here to guide you to go from good to amazing in the bedroom and beyond.

Kevin Anthony 0:27
Alright, welcome back to the Love Lab podcast. This is episode 190. And it is titled Why people quit having sex and how to fix it. An extremely common problem that people have is when they first get together, they have lots of sex, all the chemicals are flowing, and they can’t wait to rip each other’s clothes off and have sex as frequently as possible.

Kevin Anthony 0:49
And then as time goes by, it gets less and less and less and less. And it doesn’t have to that’s the point. Oh, you and I have talked about this a lot. However, we have some guests today who have some more insight into this and how to fix it. They’ve written a book on it.

Kevin Anthony 1:09
Both Céline and I have read it, which is somewhat rare because they almost never send us books ahead of time enough for us to finish them before we do interviews and in this case they did we had it far enough in advance that we both got to read it separately, and we’re really excited to talk about it and to welcome them to the show. But first,

Céline Remy 1:30
is it my cue to make the little sponsor ads to join the secret club of men who are great in bed and check out power in mastery at power and mastery.com. It is the most complete sexual mastery training for men. Whether you want to have harder erections last longer or increase your sexual skills. There is something for you at power and mastery.com. Our guests today are John and Anna, Mann.

Céline Remy 1:57
I’m going to read their bios so you get to know them a little bit more. John David Mann is co-author of more than 30 books that are a lot including New York, New York Times bestsellers, and five national bestsellers. Well, congratulations because it takes a lot of energy to write one book. So imagine 30 And his classic 2008 parable, the Go-Giver, earned the 2017 living New Book Awards evergreen metal for its contribution to positive global change.

Céline Remy 2:31
Anna Gabrielle Mann M.A earned her degree in clinical psychology before going on to serve as an educator, therapist, corporate trainer, speaker, and coach. She currently coaches go give her marriage clients and needs to go give her marriage coaches training program, training coaches from around the globe. And the authors of the Go-Giver marriage. So welcome, John and Ana,

John David Mann 2:56
thank you so much. Great introduction.

Céline Remy 3:00
So maybe we’ll start at the beginning of like, how did you end up writing a book on the go giver marriage? Because you guys are married together? And it’s like, okay, how do you get from there to writing a book? Yeah. And

Kevin Anthony 3:15
so you know, the conversation we’re gonna have today, obviously, we’ll talk a lot about your book. But it’s not just about your book. However, it’s interesting that you both have very different backgrounds. And so how the two of you came together to create this, I think is interesting. And I think the audience might enjoy it as well.

John David Mann 3:33
Yeah, it well, you know, it’s funny, because we do have very different backgrounds. And actually, you can see that in the book itself. Because the book is split in half, there are two, two parts to it. And I more or less wrote the first half and Ana more or less what the second half it’s really it’s my part in her part because we do have different skillsets and different backgrounds. I, she’s the first reader of every book I write.

John David Mann 3:57
And so I wrote this book that you mentioned, saline, the Go-Giver, back in 2008. Actually, we wrote it back in 2005. So 17 years ago, when the manuscript for this book, slid off my desktop printer and plopped on my desk on it, picked it up and read it and said, Well, this is awesome. This is really, this is a great book, this is going to go somewhere.

John David Mann 4:21
And this would make a great book about relationships. This would make a great book about marriage. And so we’ve had that idea for 17 years. It’s taken till now for various circumstances, other books to write other books in the Go-Giver series, and things that had to happen. But her background is marriage therapy, marriage counseling, family relationships, and that’s what she’s been doing since the day she walked out of grad school.

John David Mann 4:48
You know, my background is in business and leadership and writing about these things and memoirs and novels and so forth and all this writing, but we came together. This is our first book together. You know, we wanted to answer this question that friends of ours kept asking us, which was what? What is it with you guys? Like, what’s the deal? We’re calling you guys there?

John David Mann 5:13
What? Why do you act like you know, giggling teenagers? Why are you like newlyweds? So this is this book is, you know, I call it our love letter to the world. And it’s really our two careers joined between the covers of a book.

Kevin Anthony 5:27
So I have a follow-up question to that, which is, so you, you, you came up with the idea, basically, 17 years ago, and you just wrote it now? And I’m really curious, and maybe you could answer this question because you’re the one that said this would make a really great book about marriage 17 years ago. So I’m curious, would you have written the same book 17 years ago that you wrote today? And if not, what has changed over that time?

Ana Gabriel Mann 5:57
You know, I actually think we would have written the same book 17 years ago, because when we first got together, John wanted to get married, immediately, he was in that kiss of romance. And he was like, we have to get married right now. I mean, it’s what we have to do right now. And I felt very strongly that you really have to hang out in a relationship for good four or five years or longer.

Ana Gabriel Mann 6:23
Because you don’t know what so-called red flags are going to go down on the field, you know, how are you going to know who this person is, if you don’t spend enough time as a couple to figure it out. So I’m a great believer in postponing the actual date of the marriage and giving yourself time to explore who you both are because everyone brings their unique emotional baggage to a relationship.

Ana Gabriel Mann 6:50
And when you spoke earlier about how, you know, sex and intimacy back off, it’s that when the romance backs down, intimacy often backs down, but at the same time, whatever emotional material you brought to the marriage from your primary family, is going to start emerging in the relationship. And that’s when the issues of criticism and control and codependence and all kinds of different things come to play in the relationship.

Ana Gabriel Mann 7:24
And so I think we would have written the same book, we started talking about the secrets way back in 2005, and 2006. And we knew what they were by 2007. And we were very, very clear because the secrets are based on developmental theory. And that’s where John really leaned into my background is that developing developmental theory is simply what you needed as an infant.

Ana Gabriel Mann 7:48
And as a child, you still need as an adult. And so every one of the secrets is based on developmental theory. And it’s uniquely important to your development and to who you are as a person.

Kevin Anthony 8:00
She says I have like three follow up, let’s just did you want to add something

John David Mann 8:08
I was gonna add, but if we had, I’ll just add this point, which is if we had written this book, a decade earlier, or back when we first got together, so we were together for a good 10 years before we got married. And if we had written this book when we first got together, I think it might have been a different book, at least, for me, it would have been so honest, that she said, you know, we shouldn’t get married yet. I did not like this plan.

John David Mann 8:32
I was not in favor of this plan. I was like, I am a Let’s get married right now. Because she said you your material stress to come out? Well, I didn’t have any material. So I thought anyway, I mean, it was she was so right. And I was so wrong. I needed that time to kind of unpack my own life and figure out what just happened in my first marriage because I’ve just come out of a dysfunctional marriage.

John David Mann 8:57
What just happened here, where I was in a marriage where the sex disappeared, by the way, and I was in a marriage where the intimacy disappeared. I was in a marriage where I don’t think the love ever disappeared, but it sure became hard to find who was hiding out somewhere, I don’t know where.

John David Mann 9:15
And so I needed time to kind of unpack all that and figure it out myself. Before stepping into this whole new chapter of what it means to be married. So I’m so grateful to her that she said Wait, and that I did.

Kevin Anthony 9:33
So this is a great point that you brought up and actually not something I even thought we were going to be talking about at this moment. But so you’re basically saying that and uh, your advice was, you know, let’s not get married right away. Let’s take some time to get to know each other. And what I love about that is that’s actually what we did to only in the reverse. It was me actually saying that.

Kevin Anthony 9:56
So he was like, Yeah, let’s move in right away. You know, like that that was the big thing is like she’s like, let’s move in right away. And I was actually okay with that until she just in a conversation said to me one day, I’ve never actually lived by myself. And I went, wait, what? You’ve never lived by yourself, like had your space?

Kevin Anthony 10:18
And she’s like, No, she’s like, I’ve always either, you know, lived with somebody or a roommate or my partner or whatever. And as soon as she said that, I went, okay. You need to live by yourself for a little while first. Because I knew that she needed to have that experience of what would it actually be like to be on your own living on your own having your own space? You know, all of that kind of stuff? And what do you say about that now,

Céline Remy 10:44
a great year I lived by myself,

Kevin Anthony 10:48
which is really more than about eight months, I think.

Céline Remy 10:52
The grades here,

Kevin Anthony 10:53
we round up a little bit. But I want to add one other thing to that, too, is around the same time that we got married. We had a bunch actually, what was the before we got married, but within you know, a year or two, whatever. We had a bunch of friends in our community circle, who met and just got married immediately, like, one of them was so extreme, it was like they met and two weeks later, they were married. I was so

Céline Remy 11:21
envious of all these people I do it? And we’re not.

Kevin Anthony 11:27
Here’s the thing. I mean, there were probably what at least four couples that we knew that got married very, very suddenly, out of those four, well, if you include us five, but we didn’t get married very quickly. But getting married around that time out of those, ourselves, and only one other couple are still together.

Céline Remy 11:47
Five years Mark could just

Kevin Anthony 11:49
Yeah. And that was the thing is we watched that happen. And we said

Céline Remy 11:54
that’s a message you have right, Kevin, I’m glad we took this is

Kevin Anthony 11:57
probably not gonna go well. Actually, you know, some of them were somewhat mutual. Some of them were outright disasters. And so I just kind of wanted to point that out, right? Because what we’re discussing here really in the Go-Giver marriage and with you guys is how do you have a successful happy long-term relationship with healthy sex lives. And I think maybe the first point that we’ve hit on here is to take time to get to know each other.

Ana Gabriel Mann 12:28
I think that’s huge. I think that is so big. And people underestimate it all the time, they rush to get into the marriage, because that romance, in the beginning, it’s just so tantalizing, the sex is incredible. It’s never been better ever, you know, it’s that kind of moment when you think that the world can never change that this is the static feeling that you’re going to be in for the rest of your life.

Ana Gabriel Mann 12:54
And nothing could be more wrong than that, you know, you, you actually do have a place where the honeymoon is over. And where mundane everyday life, people lose their jobs, you know, stuff comes up, people get sick, you know, just things happen. And, you know, that’s the journey of marriage is that you know, there will be ups and there will be downs.

Ana Gabriel Mann 13:17
And you have to learn how to ride both, and still stay in love and still have enough of a conversation going, where you can get the intimacy to stay alive. Because one of the things that we talk about in the book in the back of the book is that intimacy backs off, usually not by accident. But because there’s a kind of pulling back at kind of emotional separation, that starts to happen after three, four, or five years.

Ana Gabriel Mann 13:48
And that’s why they refer to the seven-year itch when all of a sudden someone’s looking around at work and getting attracted to someone else. It’s because they haven’t worked on keeping the intimacy alive. And whatever emotional material has been rising, whether it’s one of them is very critical of the other.

Ana Gabriel Mann 14:05
Or there’s kind of stonewalling or ways that they don’t come together and, and stay joined as the US when they start to have quarrels. There are so many ways that it can just come to this place where there’s an impasse in the relationship, and that’s an impasse in the bedroom.

Kevin Anthony 14:25
Yeah, yes. So speaking of the bedroom, you know, you kind of talked about like, The Seven Year Itch thing, but you know, our second question was, like, according to the data, you know, how long into a relationship? Is it before people really start experiencing problems with sex and intimacy, physical intimacy?

Ana Gabriel Mann 14:49
You know, I don’t know if either one of us could quote the research on that accurately, as much as to say that I find that it’s the minute that I want to call it the crap or the SH or something starts to rise. Because when you know when the negative behaviors that you brought with you to the relationship, but your partner never saw them when you were in romance when they start to rise and enter the relationship, there’s sort of a cooling-off period in the relationship.

Ana Gabriel Mann 15:23
And that could be three years in, you know, some couples that get married right away, you know, they pop a baby within a year. And boy, add a baby to the mix. And now all of a sudden, you’re both sleepless, there’s a lot of decisions to be made. Are you even on the same page? I mean, I feel like people sometimes even find that there’s a rude awakening around whether or not we’re gonna bring this child up with the same spiritual beliefs.

Ana Gabriel Mann 15:48
You know, I’ve seen couples that it’s like, wait a minute, no, I want to take them to church. No, I don’t want you to take them to church. All of a sudden, bigger human issues are at play, and a division starts to happen. You know, in the book, we call it the scorekeeper.

Ana Gabriel Mann 16:04
But it’s a bigger division than that. It’s an emotional division, it’s a way that that you pull back in the relationship because you don’t feel safe to express your needs and your feelings. And whatever growing you need to do. Either you’re stuffing it down, or your partner might be stuffing it down. And you’re not actually growing.

John David Mann 16:23
I want to add to that, that, you know, I mentioned earlier, The Seven Year Itch, so the famous Seven Year Itch and you know, a lot of couples, really, your five years, six years seven in the lead up to that time, there’s where affairs and issues start to start to crop up.

John David Mann 16:37
But I’m shocked at how many couples find if I answer your question, given how many couples find real sexual issues, sexual problems surfacing in the first year, you know, sometimes within months after getting married, it’s somewhat a function of age if you’re young enough, the hormones or the river of hormones, the current is strong enough to sweep you along, I can take you through a couple of you know, a couple of pretty, pretty central years, and kind of paper over issues.

John David Mann 17:08
But on a mentioned getting pregnant, how many marriages, there’s a child within the first year. And it’s like, oh, now everything has changed, both physically, hormonally, but also emotionally, because for the guy, all of a sudden, now I’m sharing this house with two people, not just one, and the smaller and more powerful of the trail, his boss runs things I’d hold like this, no matter how enlightened the guy you are, it’s a real adjustment, everything’s changed.

John David Mann 17:41
Getting past that and back to a sort of a normal sex life, or some kind of have a consistent sexual rhythm. It takes some maturity, and it takes communication. And that’s often where you see things just start to break down right there. Because those skills and those tools just aren’t there.

Ana Gabriel Mann 17:59
And men and women have different arousal. Timing, men and not. Men are often like, you know, they feel they have that moment of like, she’s in really cute jeans today or her, you know, and but it’s the Rosa arousal is very instant. And he’s like, ready to throw her on the kitchen floor. And she’s saying, Well, you know, I’ve got to finish this email.

Ana Gabriel Mann 18:25
And you know, how about if we make a cup of tea, or have a glass of wine and, and have a little time on the patio to connect, and then we’ll and then we’ll go to the bedroom? Tea, and he’s going, you know, because they’re just, you know, and neither is wrong. And, and that’s what I really like to tell couples is that, you know, the fact that they’re different is, is just about the differences between men and women.

Ana Gabriel Mann 18:53
Women really need to be emotionally warmed up before they’re ready for that full-on arousal to hit. And it isn’t about foreplay. It’s about emotional connection. And so I think that a lot of couples, you know, their rhythms get off, you know, he comes home from work, and you know, the baby is asleep. So he’s like, now we got to go and do it now.

Ana Gabriel Mann 19:15
And she’s saying, I have dinner on the stove, you know, it’s like, the baby’s gonna wake up any minute, you know, there’s just all these ways that they’re kind of missing the opportunity to connect. In the book, we talked about it in terms of making it a gift.

Ana Gabriel Mann 19:31
Because I think that when especially women decide to make sex a gift, then, and something that they’re being generous about, then they’re absolutely giving their spouse the clear clues of when this is going to happen. So that there’s not any ambiguity about that.

Kevin Anthony 19:50
Yeah, I think a huge part really is having the understanding the awareness that we are actually different and in our modern society, every message that we’re getting now as there’s no difference between men and women, they’re exactly the same. We don’t even need to make the point that there are two different sexes. Let’s just make everything all the same, right?

Kevin Anthony 20:11
And that really does us injustice, because we are different, we absolutely are different. And what happens is when we’re not aware of those differences, we start to build up resentments. Because why doesn’t she want to? And then she’s like, Why does he always want to, you know because we don’t understand that we are different. But if you have that awareness, then you can figure out strategies in order to meet both of your needs.

Céline Remy 20:35
So that kind of leads us to, and you’ve already started to elude to that. But what are some of the common mistake people may make that leads to that place of having either no sex or very little sex? So we know the communication piece, right? That’s like not really working, not understanding that we have different needs. But what else is there? What do you see as the common mistakes for people to be like, Okay, let’s watch out?

John David Mann 21:01
I think one, one really common thing, and this is kind of broad as an answer. But it’s also very specific, which is, you know, we had this model, we talked about the US, which is that there’s me, and there’s you two circles that when they overlap because we’re living together. Like a Venn diagram, that overlap section is like a third being it’s called the US. It’s, you can say it’s our team. It’s team us. It’s team covenant, Silla.

Kevin Anthony 21:26
That’s what we know thing since we got together. Yeah.

John David Mann 21:29
Oh, good. Mine, that’s so cool. I love it that when stress arises, or conflict arises, there is this natural tendency to break off and go to our separate corners. And that can show up, as you know, being critical, being aggressive, but it can also show up as being defensive. Like, well, I didn’t mean anything, but why are you getting so upset? What did I do?

John David Mann 21:57
The moment you get either critical or, you know, aggressive, or defensive either way, you immediately automatically separate from the US. And what happens is, you start thinking in terms of right and wrong, who’s right and who’s wrong. If I’m right, she’s wrong.

John David Mann 22:15
And if she’s right, I’m wrong. And that’s where I want to refer to the scorecard that starts coming up. And all these kinds of natural human sort of fight or flight adrenaline-fueled behaviors, cortisone fueled behaviors, they put us in their separate corners. So we’re no longer on the same team.

John David Mann 22:35
We’re on separate teams. And that can be as simple as a little argument about the car or about the checkbook, or about the dinner, or about the movie we’re gonna want tonight simple things. But it usually is dirt stupid, simple things. Or it can be arguments about something bigger. You’re never like my mom, I love your mom, what are you? What are you getting me for? whatever the topic is, it doesn’t matter.

John David Mann 22:58
That dynamic is what matters, the dynamic is we’re going into each in our own teams. When you’re separated on your own teams, you can’t communicate, you’ve lost contact, you can’t have intimacy if you don’t have communication and contact. So that is going to translate into the bedroom. Once you get into the bedroom, you fight maybe behind you, you may have let the argument go.

John David Mann 23:21
But that residual dynamic of we’re on separate teams comes in and now you’re sitting on opposite sides of the bed going, you know, what does she want? What does he want? Where are we going? What do I need, you’re guessing what the other person wants, you’re guessing where the other person is because you’re not communicating?

John David Mann 23:39
And there’s this weird thing that people do often, where they think that they should somehow automatically know where the other person’s at. This comes up, especially in sex, although it happens. Another thing too, is like, I should know what she wants what he wants, how would that be a different person?

Ana Gabriel Mann 24:03
I want to add two specific things that couples should watch out for two very specific one is criticism. And the other is control. Now, each secret has its opposite. And both of those criticism and control are the opposite of two of the secrets in the book, in the bed. And in the bedroom.

Ana Gabriel Mann 24:23
Those are really dangerous. But out of the bedroom, they’re really five or six things that day to criticize your partner about you know, I mean, oh, you left your socks on the floor again. Oh, why can you never wipe off the counter?

Kevin Anthony 24:40
Yes, you know, as a man, I have to say there is nothing that is worse for us than criticism. Criticism like, you know, you made a valid point earlier, which is like, you know, oh, she’s got tight jeans on like, let’s go. Nothing will kill that faster than just one piece of it. criticism. It’s so true. And you know, the thing is, for most men, there are some men I’m sure that just aren’t, aren’t trying real hard.

Kevin Anthony 25:10
So you know, we’re not talking about that. But for your average man, we do try really hard in relationships in our own way. Right? Yes. And our way might be different than what she wants, per se. But we are trying, we’re doing lots of little things that we think are the right thing to do. And so when we hear criticism, we’re like, what about all these things I’ve been doing, right? It’s just, it’s like, someone just took a pin and burst our balloon. And it is, it is such a killer to a relationship.

Ana Gabriel Mann 25:42
And we frequently say that you know, men are dogs and women are cats. And, you know, it’s a joke between us. But you know, men are like great Labradors. They just want to do a good job, they really do. They want to fix your problems, they want to take care of whatever it is that’s in the way, and just do a good job. You know, whether they’re a great breadwinner, or whatever it is.

Ana Gabriel Mann 26:04
And women are definitely more emotionally complex. And so they are the cat who’s like, flickering its tail, but kind of moving in different directions around the room. So yes, criticism is a total killer of intimacy. But it’s also one of the number one things that actually make marriages. And if you are in a pattern of continual criticism, you will kill your marriage within five to six years, because nobody wants to live with somebody who beats them down day and night.

John David Mann 26:39
Yeah, by the way, you know, by the way, in our book, we talk about the four deadliest words in marriage, I love you, but I love you. But here are the ways I’d like you to be different. We all say this, but here are the five deadliest words in the bedroom from a guy standpoint, you’re not doing it right.

John David Mann 26:55
You know, I can promise you, you know, you say of criticism is a love killer of both killer man, you’re not doing it right is the ultimate buzz killer, because suddenly now, I’m only a remote control device, you’re actually the one, you know, operating this, this, this performance here. And that’s just, you know, you can’t function that way.

John David Mann 27:15
So it’s one of the secrets, you know, for us in the bedroom. Is never, we have an unwritten rule. twice in the book, we didn’t write it. It’s unwritten. Never tell the guy you’re not doing it. Right? Let him find out.

Ana Gabriel Mann 27:34
Or hurt he or her two, or her

John David Mann 27:36
two or her two? Either one either.

Ana Gabriel Mann 27:39
You know, when I’m coaching people or talking to people, and they say, Yeah, but he doesn’t, he doesn’t know where it is, you know, referring to a specific part of their anatomy. And it’s like, Well, why do you think he’s not finding it? And they’re like because he’s just not looking?

Ana Gabriel Mann 27:53
And it’s like, well, you know, that’s why you were given a voice is not to be able to point out or tell him what’s going on, but rather to make the appropriate noises, clues when he’s doing anything that is pleasurable. Give him feedback, because everybody needs feedback. Everybody wants their partner to have that look on their face, or that you know, those vocals coming out of them.

Kevin Anthony 28:21
Alright, so the next time you have a client who says he doesn’t know where to send them to us because this is what we do, we teach them the anatomy, we teach them how to find it all. But we also teach them I love the point that you brought up, which is visual acuity. And it’s not just visual, it’s auditory as well, but it’s paying attention to all those signs.

Kevin Anthony 28:40
Are her cheeks flushed? Are her eyes big? Is she making noises? What kind of noises is she wincing because it hurts a little bit, all of those little things. And even if he is an absolute expert on all of those things, still should be saying things like, you know what? I would really love it if you did this, as opposed to you’re not doing it right. Or don’t do it that way. Right. It’s like, you know what, I really love it when you do this thing. Right?

Kevin Anthony 29:09
Because that’s, that’s us speaking up and asking for what you want. As you mentioned before, people should just No, no, we haven’t just know, right? Jedi mind readers, we can know, he’s thinking these are not the droids you’re looking for. Right? Most of us do not have that ability, right? So we need to actually speak up and communicate.

Ana Gabriel Mann 29:32
Exactly. And you bring up a great point in just every day of our relationship as well, which is if you’re in the middle of a fight, there’s a language that you can use to say, I’m floored right now. And I’m struggling I don’t know how to respond. Can we stop for 10 minutes and just, I just need to take a walk around the block and think about where I’m at and think about my own behavior because I really want to make this work with you.

Ana Gabriel Mann 30:01
And just to give each other those breaks or to use words like, you know, when you do this, it makes me feel this way, instead of saying you always do that, oh, you know? Exactly, exactly this never gonna raise that. And so what you’re describing is really emotional intelligence.

Ana Gabriel Mann 30:20
And you’re describing it really well. And in the bedroom, emotional intelligence is a golden thing. Because you know, always that you’re safe. And that’s a really big thing in the bedroom. Is that safety, that sense that, you know, I’m not going to get criticized in the middle of this action.

Céline Remy 30:39
That’s a huge one. Like that fear of like, I mean, I see that a lot like, you want to do it right. But then you’re so afraid that it’s not going to do go well, and then your whole back, and then nobody shows up as their best and nobody’s willing to try something new. And then it kind of becomes stale. And then it’s like, well, he’s not finding the right things. And like, she’s not trying this new thing as I Yeah, but nobody is really communicating.

Kevin Anthony 31:03
We always tell anvils don’t be afraid to fail in the bedroom, don’t be afraid to try new things and make mistakes. We’ve tried stuff that was absolute failures. And then we ended up rolling on the bed laughing about it like that. Not working. Oh.

Ana Gabriel Mann 31:24
Paper. Lately, understand,

John David Mann 31:29
by the same token, I want to say by the same token, the positive feedback, I mean, 20 years later, 30 years later, it’s still incredible to hear on a sec. I loved that, that was great. That time today was just lovely. You know you can’t get enough of that on it talks about this thing. Primary narcissism, is the need of the child of infant, to be queued over and praised over and told how cute they are, how smart they are, and how strong they are.

John David Mann 31:53
And, and how that never goes away. We each have a little boy or little girl inside us, who still needs to be told, Look at you, you read that whole book by yourself. Wow, you’re so strong. Oh, you’re and so you know, to say that, that our time earlier. Today, that was wonderful. I just really enjoyed that, that is gonna make you light up 50 years from now it’s still gonna make you light up, it just never goes away.

Kevin Anthony 32:18
Okay, so we are going to talk a little bit more about your secrets after 25 years and just a minute. But first, we’re gonna take a quick break for our sponsor, then we’re gonna come back because I want to know more about what you were just telling us.

Céline Remy 32:31
So this is for all of your listeners who are a committed couple who feels stuck in a rut and just going through the daily motions instead of connecting the way you’re used to. If you’re tired of stale, mechanical sex, I’d like spontaneity and fun and you don’t want to live a life of average, then Kevin and I would like to invite you to join our highly sexed power couple platinum program. If you give us 90 days, we will help you bring the passion back between the sheets and be synched up sexually so that you can thrive with more purpose and passion in life.

Céline Remy 32:59
And you’ll get all of the skills that we are talking about today with John and Anna, and just beyond just the techniques, but the communication and the foundation to keep it juicy. So go to kevinandceline.com/passion if you want to learn more about this program.

Céline Remy 33:16
Alright, so I’m going to talk about kind of your secret sauce of still acting and being like a newlywed after 25 years of marriage. And I also want to point out for all the people who are listening and not watching the video that you guys are older and yet you’re still having sex because many people think like once you hit 50, or 60 ain’t happening no more. So you’re here to say that it’s not true. We’re gonna dive into that. Let us know more about your secret sauce and that we can still have sex when we are older.

John David Mann 33:49
That’s correct. Right? It’s so true, man. You know, it’s there’s this thing that when people ask us that, what’s your secret sauce? The simplest and clearest answer we’ve always had is, we both approach our relationship with what we call a spirit of generosity. The spirit of generosity is what I’m thinking about her as my focus is on. How can I make her day a little better?

John David Mann 34:12
How can I make her life a little better? What can I do to brighten her day? And I want to be really clear about this. I’m not talking about the self-denial martyr kind of thing, where I suppress what I want to give her what she wants to become her slave and toady and debase myself on the floor. It’s not like we’re talking about living with a focus on the other person. Just because you love them, just because it makes sense just because you want to.

John David Mann 34:38
And what happens is, it’s like karma. It’s like a boomerang, it comes back and floods all over you the good stuff. And the way we express it like a printer in the Go-Giver books is depend on our principle. When you give more, you have more. It’s kind of that simple. When we approach our everyday lives like that, we’re always thinking of each other and it’s a simple thing to do.

John David Mann 34:59
The same principle applies in the bedroom. And here for me is the secret for performance anxiety. A lot of men have this issue like, oh, you know, my performance anxiety, you know, we have a certain kind of anatomy that depends on cooperation, and it doesn’t always cooperate. So there’s this performance anxiety, right? Years ago, an amazing speaking coach told me the secret to giving a good public talk, aren’t you standing up on stage, instead of thinking, how am I looking?

John David Mann 35:32
How am I doing? Well, but that’s okay. And I also know what was I gonna say, again, let me rehearse the free lunch, Miss Beach, instead of doing that, which will make you anxious as hell instead think? Who are all these people out here in this audience? What can I do that will serve their day? What do I have to offer them that will make their day a little brighter?

John David Mann 35:51
Put your focus on the audience, you’re going to deliver a much better talk that works in bed, you put your focus on her, saying, How can I bring her pleasure? How can I give her a wonderful time? How can I make her day just shine a little bit? And when you can think about two things at once. the mind can’t do that.

John David Mann 36:14
So when your focus is on her, you don’t have the anxiety because there’s no time for it. That’s where your focus is. It is remarkable how that can take performance anxiety, make it go away. And I’m sure it works in reverse. The other way with the genders, but since I’m not a woman I can’t explain that

Ana Gabriel Mann 36:32
for. And what I will add to that is that the thing that happens to older couples is that they get in that long impasse. We call it the long slow freeze, you get in that place where they’ve become roommates, maybe one of them has arthritis, you know, stuff is there. But I find that and there’s a real hormone back off after menopause. And menopause happens for both men and women. Men too.

Ana Gabriel Mann 37:00
Yep, same too, when the hormones back off, that’s why men need Viagra, or there are performance issues after 50 is that their hormones have backed off, and they don’t have the same quick arousal. And it takes maybe a little more energy. But there’s also, you know when there’s that spirit of generosity when you have really paid attention to keeping the intimacy alive in the relationship, so there’s, there’s like, it’s beyond loving them, you like them. It’s really powerful.

Ana Gabriel Mann 37:34
And when I say jet, that spirit of generosity, and I say this to women, but I also say it to men, because I’ve met just as many men that are 60 that are saying, I’m not really in the mood tonight. You know, I mean, it’s really shocking. To me, it seems like the taper or the narrative that our culture says is that it’s always women that are doing that, but it’s not, it’s men and women.

Ana Gabriel Mann 37:57
But if sex is a gift, then make it a gift and make certain just like you might have had a date night early on in your relationship, make sure that you have days of the week that are absolutely designated days that you’re going to have intimacy and don’t miss a day slip by without it. Make sure that you get there, no matter what’s going on.

Ana Gabriel Mann 38:18
I mean, I have a client who’s in the middle of a hip replacement, and she cannot, she cannot positionally get in the position that she would like to get in with her husband. So I was like, Well, what’s wrong with making this Sunday or this Saturday or whatever day they have designated? What’s wrong with making that the day that you’re going to just play her him for an hour?

Ana Gabriel Mann 38:39
And she was like, Yeah, you know, think of it that way she felt because she wasn’t functional has to be a certain way that it wasn’t going to work. So it’s like you know, there are so many ways you can gift your partner with a massage with all kinds of things that are just a total turn-on.

Céline Remy 38:59
There’s so much to that I was gonna say, you know, I was were quickly talking about the hormones to for people to realize that as women go through menopause, their estrogen level goes down but then their testosterone goes higher so men tend to sorry and women tend to be more like men later on in life. This is why they do want to fuck this is why they’re freer in the like, Yes, I’m open.

Céline Remy 39:23
Well, man while they go through and repose, their testosterone goes lower, but their estrogen counts are higher and a lot of men need more touch and connection and intimacy like before they needed a whole now they really need a heart. And this is where people don’t always get it because you kind of reversed sometimes for people.

Céline Remy 39:43
But as women if we’ve gone through this, we’re like now we can get it. Okay, I used to take 25 minutes so it’s okay if I give him 25 minutes to get a hard-on like, I don’t have to expect it in 25 seconds. So this is just kind of like a little side notes that I wanted to bring in since you mentioned that about the hormones that are to standing. But I also think that the place of giving and I’m going to be the devil’s advocate here.

Céline Remy 40:08
Because I really, really, I love I totally agree with like, it is one of the tips that we always give people give more than you take. But we meet a lot of men, and it’s mostly men in that I’m going, to be honest, that I say, but I’m a giver, I just focus on her pleasure. But the giving that they think is giving, is taking.

Céline Remy 40:32
And they’re doing something because they’re doing it kind of for themselves. So they want something out of what they’re doing. And it’s not true leaving. So I don’t know if you have a clarification around, especially in the bedroom, because like, I gave her real sex, I think that but really, she wanted a shoulder rub, or she wanted a shoulder to cry on.

Céline Remy 40:49
And so they’re like, Well, I’m giving or I’m giving because I want her to do this particular ending, and it’s not happening. So what’s your take on that? And can you clarify the giving, so that we don’t get into that fake giving, aka taking?

John David Mann 41:01
I love that, that is so great, thank you. That’s such a great point,

Ana Gabriel Mann 41:05
a huge insight.

John David Mann 41:07
You know, it kind of goes back to what Kevin was saying earlier about, you know, pay attention to her the flesh in her skin to whereas doing your breathing, it’s, it’s about paying attention to the other person. And you’re so right, there is this kind of giving and you see in business to people feel I did him a favor. Now he owes me something. In fact, I did the favor so that he would owe me something.

John David Mann 41:28
That’s the reason I did the favor I didn’t want to give. That’s not giving. That’s that’s negotiating. That’s like a transaction. Now, your relationship has become transactional. Because you’re saying I’m going to give her this oral sex. I’m going to give her this great. I’m going to do those great stuff because like now I’m really I’m racking up the credits and my emotional bank account, I expect some pretty good hot stuff here.

John David Mann 41:50
Yeah. Now she owes me. Now she owes me. That’s not giving. That’s trying to tilt the scorecard in your favor. And the difference? Very simple difference. The difference is, am I paying attention to her? Is it about her? There’s a woman is a character in a book, who is who’s talking about her former marriage, she’s now divorced.

John David Mann 42:13
And about her first husband was always giving her gifts, and he would give her gold jewelry. And the problem was, she didn’t like gold jewelry, she liked silver jewelry. But he didn’t know that, because he never really looked, he never really paid attention. That’s kind of a version of what you’re talking about. Giving isn’t just giving, it starts with paying attention. That’s one of our five secrets, paying attention. That

Kevin Anthony 42:36
is a mastery secret in relationships for men who are listening. Pay attention to the details, the details that seem so small and trivial to you matter to her immensely. Pay attention to the details. can’t say that enough.

John David Mann 42:56
I’m underlining that in my mind. That’s right.

Ana Gabriel Mann 42:59
It’s also true for men and for women. And that is that. Okay, so if you haven’t, you know, if you have lingerie that’s been in your, in your drawer for years, but you haven’t been wearing it, and you know, it’s particularly a turn on for your husband, then what part of you is not going to, you know, actually use it,

Ana Gabriel Mann 43:23
Put it to use because it, you know, it could just and it can even be the way that you let them know that when is now you know, when you walk through the room in a particularly sexy pair of underwear, you know, he’s gonna go. And you know, when he does, you know, you can always say, you know, I know you’ve been editing all day long, but you should put that book down and just walk out. You know,

John David Mann 43:48
anybody in particular, by the way?

Ana Gabriel Mann 43:51
What’s the point is that you know, don’t stop flirting with your husband, because men love to be flirted with. And because it’s a powerful thing going both directions. I mean, another client, that’s, that’s quoted in the back of our book is a woman who has her husband was taking six little boys to soccer, and the kids were all in the car. So he’s walking out the door.

Ana Gabriel Mann 44:14
And as he walked away from her, she said, Have I told you lately that you have the cutest buttoned blue jeans? And, you know, he turned around and he looked at her and he goes, Yeah, well, it’s even cuter out of blue jeans. And without missing a date, she said, consider that a date, buddy. But it was like this beautiful way that they use depreciation to flirt with each other.

Kevin Anthony 44:37
Yes, yes. Yes. Appreciation. That is huge. We talk about it a lot on this show. Okay, so we’re

Ana Gabriel Mann 44:44
secret number one. appreciation is secret number one in the book, and it’s opposite his criticism. And would

Céline Remy 44:51
you say that that would be the first step the first thing that people could focus on if they’re now like, okay, they seeing that they’re going down the wrong road? Oh, that they’re doing a lot of criticism, they recognize themselves in some of the things you’ve described. What would you say? Their first step, you know would be is that that’s the appreciation or you have something else.

John David Mann 45:13
I’m just going to say appreciation because that’s one of the first things to go. And what I mean by that is, we stop saying it. You know, when you’re first in love, you can’t say it enough. You say 24 hours a day, right? Oh, my God, you’re amazing. But then the moment, stress happens and life gets busy is the first thing we lose it.

John David Mann 45:31
We start to just take it for granted and go through the motions and stop saying, You’re gorgeous. I mean, you just take my breath away. If you can’t say that, after 2530 4050 years, get back in the mindset where you can, because that’s when the need for that never goes away.

Ana Gabriel Mann 45:49
And don’t stop kissing. Kissing is extremely sexy. Sexy, I mean, so wonderful. Yeah, I mean, women unwrap for kissing. And I don’t think a lot of men realize that sometimes badly underestimated? Yeah, I mean, it’s

Kevin Anthony 46:06
like that. I did that for a long time.

John David Mann 46:12
So, so, so powerful.

Ana Gabriel Mann 46:14
I have interviewed hundreds and hundreds of women about this topic. And some of them will say, kissing ahead of oral sex any day of the week. And when I, when I say to them, Does he even know that? And they’re like, no, he thinks oral sex is king. But you know, it’s, it’s, it’s really about that same point you just made, which is paying attention to the details.

Ana Gabriel Mann 46:36
Pay attention to the little things and talk about them. have honest conversations. What do you love? What do you love when I do this? Or that? Do you love that? Or is there something else? I do that you love more? And make sure you phrase that not in the way of what am I doing wrong? What am I doing? Right, exactly? What can I do?

John David Mann 46:55
How can we take this to the next level? Yeah.

Kevin Anthony 46:58
Okay, we’re getting down to the end of the time that we have for this. I want just wanted to say one last thing about your book. And then, of course, we have one last question for you. I just wanted to say that I actually really appreciated reading this book, because it was rather different than most of the books we read. And we read a lot of books. What I loved about it was the way that it was, like you said sort of split, right.

Kevin Anthony 47:24
So you have your sort of fiction side where you get to basically read a story. And then you have your more scientific side where you get the details and the facts. And maybe it’s just me, you sound like a Gemini and I like using both sides of my brain pretty evenly. But I really appreciated that. Like, I don’t trust me, I don’t read any fiction as I read. I don’t even know how many books a year, like stacks of books a year.

Kevin Anthony 47:50
All nonfiction 100% I think I’ve written three fiction books in my life. I just, you know, give me a scientific book full of data. I’m all over it, right. But I really enjoyed the first part of the book, the stories of it. And I actually found it quite touching, because a lot of it reminded me of us and the things that we do.

Kevin Anthony 48:09
And so I thought that was great. And of course, you know, the second half of the book is sort of my home place where I normally feel comfortable. Yeah, the place. Yeah, so that was great, too. So I thought it was well done. It was a different take on giving people some really great classic advice.

John David Mann 48:26
So thank you so much.

Céline Remy 48:28
Where can people go if they want to have the Go-Giver marriage if they want to learn more about the five secrets, I’ve already gotten a couple of the secrets today. But if they want more, where can they find you and new books.

Ana Gabriel Mann 48:43
You can find us on go giver marriage.com. That’s our website. And in terms of learning more about the five secrets, we actually offer a zoom teach teachings, which are it’s a class called the Living the five secrets to lasting love. And we have them every month several times a month. And so you can register it’s up to 30 people in a Zoom Room, and you can register we go a deep dive into the five secrets.

Ana Gabriel Mann 49:12
And then we spend a lot of time over an hour, hour and a half interacting with the people in the room about what’s going on in their relationships. So it’s a very, very deep dive into the book. And entry includes a copy of the book. So you can sign up. You can order the book anywhere you can order it on our website, you can order it on Amazon, Barnes, and Noble any indie bookstore, but you can also if you want to be a coach, we also have our coaching program which starts this coming fall.

Céline Remy 49:42
Right? Alright, the Go-Giver, go-giver marriage.com, and all the links will be in the description below. And now we are coming on to our very last question which is one of my favorites. And you’re each going to have to take your turn and you can choose who goes first but we want to know John and Anna, what are your best sexual talents?

John David Mann 50:04
I wonder which one of us will go first with this? Oh, me? Oh, no, I have to think really fast.

Ana Gabriel Mann 50:14
I think we should both tell for the other.

Kevin Anthony 50:16
You sometimes

John David Mann 50:18
interesting.

Ana Gabriel Mann 50:19
Yeah. Yeah.

John David Mann 50:21
I think okay, I’ll do that I’ll do it your I think your best talent is utter honesty, honesty and authenticity are I never have the slightest hint of a question of whether you’re playing games or hiding out or not telling me the whole truth. We’re just you see, you’re so honest, I just love that. So there you go.

Ana Gabriel Mann 50:44
And John’s strength is that he is a total giver in the bedroom. I mean, it’s so palpable and powerful. And the total giver in life. I mean, he really adds value to my life every single day. I mean, he delivers me a cup of tea every morning at 7 am on the bedside table, before I even sit up. So you know, it’s like when you are generous in that kind of way in the bedroom. There’s nothing that isn’t just exquisite and amazing.

Kevin Anthony 51:13
Oh, right, great answers. All right. Well, that’s all the time that we have for this episode. But we want to thank you guys, both for coming on the show I had in my head. We even skipped a couple of questions on the list. And I had so many follow-ups, but they’re just there’s only so much time in a podcast.

Kevin Anthony 51:32
So we did the best we could to cover as much as we could. If you want more, for sure. Go check out their book. And thank you, John and Anna, for coming on the show. Thank you so much, so much.

Ana Gabriel Mann 51:45
It’s a great conversation. Thank you.

Kevin Anthony 51:48
All right, everybody. That’s all the time we have for this episode. And we will see you next week. We hope you liked this episode of the Love Lab podcast. If you enjoy this show, subscribe. Leave us a review and share it with your friends.

Céline Remy 52:04
And for more free exclusive content. Join us in the passion vault at kevinandceline.com/vault.

Kevin Anthony 52:19
Thanks for listening. And remember,

Céline Remy 52:20
you’re amazing

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