Why Women Are Attracted To Assholes

Kevin Anthony 0:11
Welcome to the Love Lab podcast, a safe place to get honest about sex. Whether you’re a man or woman, single or couple, this is the show for you.

Céline Remy 0:20
We are your hosts, Kevin Anthony and Céline Remy and we are here to guide you to go from good to amazing in the bedroom and beyond.

Kevin Anthony 0:27
All right, welcome back to the Love Lab podcast. This is episode 197. And it’s titled why women are attracted to assholes. But do not let that title fool you. Because we are going to be talking about way more than just that. We will talk about that. But there’s so much more. And I have to say, and I usually do this at the beginning of a show.

Kevin Anthony 0:51
But we rarely get a lot of time to talk to our guests before they come on the show. Sometimes we get to read their books, sometimes we don’t, we actually had an opportunity this time to talk a little bit more. And it was absolutely hysterical.

Kevin Anthony 1:04
So I’m just going to tease you a little bit at the beginning of this, if you’re just like, you know, tuning in to see like is this? Do I really want to listen to this? Yes, you do. Because it’s going to be really fun, there’s gonna be tons of foul language,

Céline Remy 1:18
that’s gonna say yes, it’s like, be prepared.

Kevin Anthony 1:23
It’s gonna be really fun, we’re really going to be talking about some male archetypes and how men show up and what dynamic that creates in the relationship and how that relates to your sex life, we’re going to hear about it from somebody who lived it personally, and also from his actual therapist.

Kevin Anthony 1:40
So this is going to get really, really good because you can get both and usually you get the therapist coming on talking about therapists, you know, the way that they would handle the situation, or you get the other end, which is like, here’s what I went through.

Kevin Anthony 1:52
But today, you’re going to get both sides of it shouldn’t be really, really interesting, especially because they actually wrote a book together. And we’re gonna we’re going to introduce them in just a minute.

Céline Remy 2:03
All right, so before we introduce our guests, let’s give a big shout-out to our sponsor’s power and mastery. If you want to join the secret club of men who are great in bed, then check out power and mastery at power and mastery.com. It is the most complete sexual mastery training for men.

Céline Remy 2:19
Whether you want to have harder erections, last longer, or increase your sexual skills. There is something for you at power and mastery.com. So make sure you go check it out after the show.

Céline Remy 2:30
So our guests today have David Coates, David, so men like those featured in the book be less dickish. So we are starting already with our tip. While practicing psychotherapy in San Francisco and has worked very hard to be less dickish himself. He has led the men’s group Couples Retreat Being an adjunct faculty member of the California Institute of integral studies, John F. Kennedy University, and taught internationally. He currently resides in places warmer than San Francisco and continues to travel right teach and support men, women, and couples and figure things out.

Céline Remy 3:08
And prior to co-authoring Be Less Dickish. We had Cory and Cory was David Coates’s client, Cory sat on David’s couch and spilled his gut. The therapist and client relationship lasted for over seven years and was the basis for many of the therapy sessions that are described in the book. He’s married to Kelly, and he’s a dad, grandpa, and just a regular fellow who enjoys restoring all Lamborghini tractors with his family and friends. So welcome David Coates and Corey Kilpack to today’s show.

Corey Kilpack 3:41
Thanks for having us.

Céline Remy 3:44
I love the fact that when I realized that, wow, you Corey were the client. So your relationship really has evolved over the years. And that’s pretty cool that you were able to shift into this new dynamic and create something pretty powerful together.

Corey Kilpack 4:03
It was a shifting dynamic. There’s no question Dave. And I became very close. I mean, it was a professional relationship that ended probably three or four or five years ago. And then they reached out to me, and we started this book. So we’ve been through a lot together. We’ve processed a lot, personally, and we processed a lot to get this book done.

Céline Remy 4:24
All right, a hell of a ride. So the book is for all of you listeners, and for those watching the video, we’ll put it there, but the book is “how to be less dickish”.

Kevin Anthony 4:34
Yes. And I want to read the subtitle for that. Because some people are like, I’m not a dick. What do I need this book for? The definitive self-help book about men. So it is a very fun title. But it’s not just about the dick. And we’ll get into that what we mean by that in a moment because there’s a lot more depth to it than just your dick and here’s how you fix it right.

Céline Remy 4:56
So let’s break it down a little bit because you guys have identified Four archetypes, so maybe that’s a good starting point. Let’s start by breaking them down a little bit and letting our listeners and audience know about those archetypes.

Corey Kilpack 5:12
Go for it, Dave.

David Coates 5:13
All right. Great to be here. And here. Here’s what we came up with, like, what do men do when they spit out? What do men do when they’re triggered? And so we came up with basically four different directions that men will go when they’re triggered. And then we took them to the extreme.

David Coates 5:34
And then we took the most intense labels, these most intense art types, and said, Okay, we’re gonna, we’re going to take these intense words, and we’re going to define them. So the first I’ll start with an asshole. So the asshole is the most extreme, he’s aggressive. He’s completely selfish. He’s only thinking about himself.

David Coates 5:53
And He’s shameless. He’s not even aware of the impact he’s having on other people. He’s not he’s not aware at all of the others. So that tends to be the most extreme response that men have. And so he’s the asshole. Do you want us to hit on all four?

Kevin Anthony 6:11
Yeah, just a brief summary of all four, and then we’re gonna dive in. And because I know Corey is going to add a bunch of personal stories into it and what

Céline Remy 6:19
we know you’re the asshole why don’t we

Corey Kilpack 6:28
just go back and forth on this? Yeah, and I think, you know, there are four characters in here, the asshole, the douchebag, the pussy, and the dick. And they really describe these motives that we have and what we can’t and how much we care. Do you give a shit? Do you give a fuck do you not give a fuck.

Corey Kilpack 6:49
And it’s not just a matter of like, whether you have an emotional experience, you can do that. It’s whether you are aware enough and care enough about other people, and about yourselves that you’re concerned about the consequences? Or possibly on the other side? That’s all you do. You’re only concerned about feelings, and your emotions and the consequences, and everyone else’s consequences, and how Frozen is Antarctica today?

Corey Kilpack 7:16
And what is that doing to me? And this is how we broke these characters down you have this asshole who doesn’t give a fuck and is thinking about himself. The extreme side of that is the pussy who cares about everything and is always giving everything away. He’s deferential. So the pussy is the extreme opposite of the asshole. Not just because he’s gonna get his ass kicked.

Corey Kilpack 7:40
But because he cares more than the asshole cares. He’s conscientious more than the assholes conscientious. And he’s selfless, whereas the asshole is selfish. I was born and created these dynamics and how men behave and how their relationships are between them. I don’t want

Kevin Anthony 7:58
to interrupt you just for a split second, because I want to make sure that people understand. So you just touched on something there, which is that we’re not just saying that these are all bad and that there are some gifts that come with these two, right? Because you just said that, that you know the douchebag is more conscientious, maybe then the hassle, right.

Kevin Anthony 8:18
So there are some good qualities in each one. And we’ll talk more about that later. But I just kind of wanted the listeners to understand that as we’re talking about these different archetypes and how they manifest there can be some good qualities in there as well.

Céline Remy 8:31
So we’ve got the Asel self-centered, the opposite is the pussy overly compliant and serving to its faults. With next.

Corey Kilpack 8:44
I’ll kick it off. I’m gonna go with the douchebag. And let Dave finish with the deck. All right, you so what you’re saying is really important. being selfish and being selfless. Neither one is great, and neither one is wrong. It’s not bad. They’re good things you need them both. being conscientious and shameless, also not bad, not pejorative, you need them both.

Corey Kilpack 9:05
The extremes create these characters and these names that we’re using. But the actual experience of being selfish or selfless is no big deal. But take the douchebag like there’s this image that we have of the douchebag of this guy who’s always looking for his personal conquests and keeping a calendar diary of all the shit that he has and the things that he does and the women that he’s been with or whatever it is.

Corey Kilpack 9:33
And you think that this can’t be a selfless character. He’s got to be selfish to be that concerned about himself. But that’s not the case. In the case of the douchebag, This is a character who’s taken his authentic self and just discarded it. So his self his true experience and what he really is he just like fuck that. I’m going to be something else.

Corey Kilpack 10:02
I’m going to put on a costume, I’m going to look a certain way, dress a certain way. And I don’t care what the consequences are. And I’m sure in your practice, you’ve seen these guys, where they can hardly be in a relationship anymore. Because who the hell is this guy? Like, great car? Great suit. Nice watch right on, buddy. Who the fuck are you?

Corey Kilpack 10:25
And how the hell do you expect anyone to figure it out? When you’ve agreed that you’re going to throw it all away and be this shameless? the character on this stage? That’s the douche bag. And the opposite of that is the over conscientious, selfish Dec. Go for it. Have a great time with that guy.

David Coates 10:51
Douche bag is a great imitator. Right. And so the other side, we have the deck. So like the asshole, this guy is selfish and is only really interested in what he wants. And we’d said the asshole shameless. And the deck is conscientious. And most people, this one’s counterintuitive. They’re like, how’s the deck conscientious? The deck is very aware of how you’re feeling and what’s going on with you.

David Coates 11:17
But only insofar as it affects him. So the deck is the classic guy that like, let’s say his partner walks in, and she’s had a stressful day. He’s very aware that she’s had a stressful day. And his first thought is rage. Now, what do I have to deal with? How’s this gonna affect me and my fucking night? So he’s always the victim. So he’s very conscientious.

David Coates 11:40
He’s aware of you. He’s aware of everything, only insofar as it affects him. And this guy is tough because it’s never his fault. Something’s always been done to him. He’s being perfectly reasonable. But it’s your fault. And so whatever he does is justified. Yeah, I said a mean thing. But look what you said to me first. So he is the consummate victim.

Kevin Anthony 12:05
So I have a question out of these four, are there any that you tend to see more often than the others?

David Coates 12:14
Listen, that’s a great question. I mean, I see. You can count you know, I can see it in my own life. When I’m activated. Like I can track myself going to all four of these quadrants. But I’ve definitely seen a lot of decks and a lot of policies, probably more than the other two. That’s what I would say

Kevin Anthony 12:34
being go. That was a loaded question because that was the answer I expected to get. And I asked that question first because we were going to talk about all of them throughout the course of this show. But I think we’re going to probably focus on those two, a little bit more one, because Corey, you have self-identified as formerly being one of these more common types, right.

Kevin Anthony 12:57
So obviously, since we have your experience here, we want to spend some time digging into that, and you know, from both of your perspectives, but that would have been my guest to the end of the current society, you probably tend to see the majority of being on one side of that spectrum or the other.

Corey Kilpack 13:13
There’s a little bit to talk about with that before we get into the details of who these characters are. And understand that being a conscientious person, and for yourself and others, whether you’re doing it for as in a role as someone who’s submissive, whether you’re conscientious and looking out for yourself like nothing’s ever your fault, those have become the acceptable way to exist.

Corey Kilpack 13:39
We’ve created a mode where somehow we’ve elevated this level of submission and this level of caring about everyone else, and everything that they do to you, and raise that on a platform and exists within movements, ideologies that can exist in all kinds of places. But we have a generally accepted mode now where Yeah, it’s kindness means you give up or you give it away or you don’t win, or you don’t expect to be the winner.

Corey Kilpack 14:12
And conscientiousness is, you care about everything, and you make sure everyone knows how much you care and you signal how much you care. So when Dave says he’s seen this a lot more I think we can all say the same thing, because that’s the general, like the accepted way to be right now. That is wokeness if you want to call

Kevin Anthony 14:34
it’s the HAHA Yes. You’re starting to go there. Yeah. What were you gonna say something? Well,

Céline Remy 14:38
they’ve said something interesting, too. Can you move from one archetype to another because you were saying you can identify and when you get activated into the different archetypes, can you go? Is there a default one or maybe you react that way in this circumstance? And this way in another one?

David Coates 14:58
Yeah, I mean, This is a great question. And you can see it, you can see them all sometimes in a short conversation, you can see a guy walk in, like in my example and, and you know, let’s say his partner, she’s had a hard day. He’s like, You know what, you’re always in a bad mode. You know, why are you always stressed out? Right? So he’s the deck, he’s the victim.

David Coates 15:21
And let’s say she’s, you know, she snaps at him, right? And then he can shift and go full and asshole. Well, you can fuck off. Like, I don’t care what you think. Right? Like, then He’s shameless and selfish. Right? And then he feels bad, right? Because their feelings are hurt. And then he gets deferential. Like, oh, I’m sorry. Like, what, you know, what can I could do for dinner, like, you know, you know, and then he and then and then you know, that’s not working.

David Coates 15:43
And then finally, he can shift to like, you know, baby, it’s all good. Like, we got a good thing going, like, let’s just like keep it positive, like, you know, like, so you can literally move all over the spectrum in a single conversation. And some men do that, they’ll try to find a way to kind of keep to keep their position to not actually take full responsibility.

David Coates 16:02
So absolutely. And men can be like, complete assholes at work and be complete, like deferential men at home. Like it’s fascinating when you really start to see through this lens, how men can kind of move around, depending on the context, depending on what’s going on in the conversation. Yeah, it’s very cool.

Corey Kilpack 16:21
I think what Dave’s describing too, is a character who is ranging in proximity to a Balance Center. Like he’s always going to be extreme. And in chapter seven, of our book, we really hit this heart, as we lay it out in a brutal view. And that chapter is about the piece of shit.

Corey Kilpack 16:45
And we ask the question very specifically, in the book, what’s worse, an asshole or a piece of shit? If you go out in public, go to your bars, hang out with your friends, and you ask, they’ll nod their head, like the piece of shit is worse. Like, there’s no question about it really, if you’ve experienced this, and what Dave’s describing is a character who’s compartmentalized, and he used the example of someone who’s an asshole at work, but deferential at home.

Corey Kilpack 17:11
we’ve seen other examples where people are deferential at work, you put them in, in a situation where they’re feeling threatened by another asshole, for example, and they’ll go home and just take it out on anyone around them. Or they find situations where they can fake it and appear to be something completely different. But at home, they’re a monster, or they’re deferential.

Corey Kilpack 17:36
There’s something different. They compartmentalize their life. And really these are our arrangements where people stay on this extreme in order to wield control, or give up control, which is also a form of control, ironically, and ironically, rather, but the people just range around doing shitty things all the time. Not everyone is just going one direction do Northwest or do south, they tend to compartmentalize depending on the situation.

Kevin Anthony 18:07
Right. And that’s why I think discussing these, as many of them as we can fit into the show is important because some people might go, Well, I’m a little bit of this, a little bit of that. So it’s good for them to get a broad feeling. And I definitely want to come back to something you were saying before, Corey, but I’m gonna save that now until we get to the pussy because it fits in with that perfectly.

Kevin Anthony 18:29
I want to jump over to the asshole character. And maybe you could start by telling us a little bit about the character at the beginning of the book and how that character sort of acted. And then you know, you can take that and then lead into the sort of secret behind that character.

Corey Kilpack 18:55
Oh, we shouldn’t have had that call, huh? Yeah, this is awesome. You know, I don’t know a lot about your viewers or, and readers and your clients and but they sound like they’re real people in real relationships, doing real things, and are willing to arrive at a point in their life. They’re willing to talk about the details of their life and ask questions. If they’re not showing up to you with a closed mind.

Corey Kilpack 19:24
They’re arriving curious, they’re aware of their situation, and they’re willing to talk about it. And we wanted to bring that out in the book and the first character and this is a character book, it is driven by these characters, they follow a story arc. And these are real experiences of real people and we change the names in many cases and kind of mix them up obviously to make it into a book.

Corey Kilpack 19:49
But Jonah is the present character. He is a beast in the book and he is the asshole and if you start reading the book I think you have, right? Yes. If you get through Jonah, there’s going to be a point where you want to put this thing down.

Céline Remy 20:10
I was like, I can’t continue reading, I am so annoyed. This is everything that’s wrong and was like, if this client, this person needs to come and see me. I don’t even know if I want to work with the guy anyway.

Corey Kilpack 20:25
Yeah, and but at the same time, when you’re reading it, you realize I know this guy. Right? And we’re trying to show this as like, Yeah, this is a guy in your neighborhood, or in your house or at your job, like, you know, this guy, you’ve talked about this guy, you may have been attracted to this guy, you may have been repulsed by this guy likes it, who knows.

Corey Kilpack 20:49
But it’s certainly recognizable. And this is a guy who’s going through his life, and relying on his innate instincts as an asshole to get through the backing day.

Kevin Anthony 21:02
Oh, give us an example of that, because I know you got a good one.

Corey Kilpack 21:08
And it’s not in the first chapter. And I know where you’re going. Dave’s cracking up, he’s like, Oh, I don’t know where this is gonna land. This is gonna go. So I’ll give you the example that we put in the book, there was a personal example is that there’s a story in there where this asshole actually threatens a preschool director.

Corey Kilpack 21:32
Like he in front of families in front of kids, he snaps, he loses his shit and threatens a preschool director, like, Who the hell does this, and it’s insane. And then as a result of this, the kid gets threatened by the school, the parents, who want to kick the little four-year-old kid out of school. And everyone’s a monster. Because of this Jonah, I threatened a preschool director.

Corey Kilpack 22:04
And we’re sharing this and Dave, and I went back and forth on whether include this in the book because that really happened. I really did that, like I really, truly in those exact words that are in the book, threatened the preschool director, and almost those exact circumstances. And it came down almost exactly the way it did. With on that on my son.

Corey Kilpack 22:28
And it was a point where, like, for me, personally, I was like, how, how bad can this get? Like how, like, what new catastrophe could come my way? Like, how bad could this really go? If I’m at the point where my instincts say threaten this guy who’s trying to do the best he can for little kids and families and help him get into kindergarten and teach them how to read and write and play with each other. And here I am threatening this guy.

Corey Kilpack 23:02
And I show up to Dave the character in the book. It’s like, all right, like, this is it like, like, we’re done? Like it’s over? Like you there’s no coming back from something as catastrophic as that. And to write this in the book, I couldn’t have done it without Dave, because he was there for a lot of this process. He may not have been around at the exact time that that happened at the preschool.

Corey Kilpack 23:32
But there were plenty more just like it right there. If you agree that the correct answer there is no that was. That was the only time the book we’re dealing with in the book, and with Dave’s help as a character and as a writer and as a therapist in the book, to try and pinpoint the difference in what is an instinct and a reaction.

Corey Kilpack 24:04
And what is a controlled and direct and responsible response or act? And clearly, this character Jonah, didn’t show up very concerned about being responsible. He is just going to break shit, hurt shit, and call people names and get to the front of the line and he doesn’t give off fuck.

Kevin Anthony 24:29
So So Dave, when this guy shows up in your office, like how does that go? Like what are you thinking? Are you like, oh, man, I got a shit ton of work to do here. Like how do you approach that when this guy this asshole shows up in your office and tells you that he just threatened a preschool teacher.

David Coates 24:49
Yeah, I mean, listen, assholes are usually compelled to therapy like they have to be there or their partner says you either go to therapy or we’re done like it takes a lot of pressure. how to braid somebody’s like out of that mold. And the only thing you can do and this is what I do with everybody that I see is trying to get them curious.

David Coates 25:10
And that’s really the skill and two from the profession, which you guys probably recognize, too, like, how do you get someone interested in what they’re doing? How do you break their narrative where like, it’s everyone else’s fault, and there’s no other fucking way or you’ve and usually things aren’t going well for the asshole.

David Coates 25:28
Usually, there’s a lot of pressure mounting. And then there’s an opportunity, right for them to say, Okay, I got to figure out what my role is in all of this. Like, I’m the common factor here across the board in my life that is falling apart.

Kevin Anthony 25:43
That takes him awareness.

David Coates 25:46
Yeah, it does. And it takes a lot of things. It can take patience, it takes a lot of care, and it takes a lot of curiosity. It takes the capacity to frame a different kind of life. Because, you know, the asshole is terrified of being humiliated. Like we all are at our core, but just there’s always going to be shame there.

David Coates 26:05
And like, how do you get someone interested because you want them to get better you’re pulling for it, like women who have dated assholes, like they, there’s dying for the guy to show up differently to not be so reactive, like to break that cycle of being an asshole and then apologizing the next day and being ashamed and, you know, committing to being different. And then the same thing happens again.

David Coates 26:28
So, you know, I find them fascinating also, because there’s such power, there’s such like raw intensity. And you know, most men are hungry. You know, who far more on the policy dig side of the spectrum, there’s a big appeal of the asshole because there’s a freedom there. Most people care too much about what other people think. They’re very self-conscious, they’re easily embarrassed.

David Coates 26:50
And then here comes the asshole. There’s a lot of asshole and popular media now and television because he’s got this magnetic appeal because he’s free in a way others are not. So a lot of the men I work with, I’m trying to teach them to get in touch with their more aggressive side, they’re more assertive sides not give so much of a fuck. So much of the time. So it’s you know, it’s interesting, right?

Kevin Anthony 27:11
That is the perfect transition. As you know, from the title of the show, we also have a question, which is, Why are women attracted to this archetype? Right? Why Why do women go for the bad boy? And you know, we have our own theories on that, which, you know, in speaking a little bit earlier seem to jive with, with what you guys are saying too, but you guys definitely approach it from a little bit of a different angle and use different languaging.

Kevin Anthony 27:36
So I’m really curious from your point of view, why is it that women are often attracted to this asshole type? And in that, I’m sure you’ll be able to tell us some of the good reasons. And some of the not-so-good reasons.

David Coates 27:52
Corey, do you want to start with this one? Yeah. The,

Corey Kilpack 27:56
I’m going to tell it from the point of the book and the concepts of the book because I only know the one that’s attractive to me. So

Corey Kilpack 28:09
I can’t really speak to at a personal level, but I will say this about the asshole one, there are fewer of them. In order to have an asshole in the community. He needs to have subjects. So they’re rare. Just statistically, they’re not as present. And like we talked about earlier, there seem to be a lot more postseason decks out there. So that’s part of it. But the most important part and why they’re attracted to it isn’t because they’re aggressive, and they hurt people.

Corey Kilpack 28:39
That’s not what makes an asshole attractive. That makes him awful. That makes him scary. That makes him a threat. And we make no excuses for this. We’re not promoting aggression. We’re making it very clear. Violence is awful, it is fucked up and it hurts people. But the characteristics that make the asshole are selfishness and shamelessness.

Corey Kilpack 29:05
And when that’s in control, you have a guy who basically is creating his own ride. And these same characteristics make him unconcerned about other’s feelings all the time, or even unaware as Dave described him. They’re the same characteristics that make a person fearless of failure and fearless of the naysayers and fearless of the gallery comments.

Corey Kilpack 29:33
And one example I like to give people just because it’s pop culture and it’s real. You look at what Elon Musk has done. And you can’t look at a guy and think, Hey, you built these industries and this electric car industry. If you were afraid of what people would say are afraid of going bankrupt or afraid of losing your previous fortune. He wouldn’t have you wouldn’t have done it, but you did it anyway, this is a guy he wasn’t even aware he’s like, so what?

Corey Kilpack 30:05
Like he’s not, he’s giving people a ride a reason to watch what he’s doing. And at a personal level, we’re saying, take your shit back closer to the center. If you want to be in a relationship, don’t be worried about the gallery all the time, give people a reason to want to see what you’re doing, and give people a reason to want to get on the ride. And also give them a reason to be really fucking proud to have you on their team.

Corey Kilpack 30:38
And I think that’s what we’re trying to say we kind of sum this up again, and later in the book. It’s like an asshole. That’s your asshole. It’s kind of cool. Like, when he’s on your side, you’re like, Yeah, I’d rather have that guy on my side. And then that explains why people want to be on his ride. And they want to be they are attracted to they want to join in that creation, and that business and that relationship and that family, because hell yeah, let’s get on the ride and go with that guy.

Kevin Anthony 31:08
Yeah, reminds me of that line. In the first Austin Powers movie, when they’re talking about who is Austin Powers. He’s an International Man of Mystery. And basically what they say is, men, want to be him. And women want to be with him. Right. And it’s that same sort of concept, which is, that the things that make women attracted to the asshole are not the fact that he’s an actual asshole and not the fact that he threatens their kid’s teacher and almost gets their kids.

Kevin Anthony 31:36
But that’s not what’s attractive, right? What’s attractive is, is that he’s assertive, and he stands up for what he wants. And he embodies masculine qualities that, especially in today’s society, are so lacking in so many men, hence the pussy, which we’ll talk about later. But it’s that idea that, that there are those masculine qualities that women are really craving that they only see in the guy that just doesn’t give a shit.

Kevin Anthony 32:01
Right? But because on the other end of the spectrum, that guy cares so much. He doesn’t allow those things to show up. I mean, what would you say about that suddenly, as the one woman here?

Céline Remy 32:14
being put in the spotlight here? No, I totally, I totally would agree. I think there’s this there’s something very attractive about a man who, you know that no matter what you do, as a woman, you can’t change him. Like, there’s a part of us as women, we’re like, oh, we want to change this person, and we’re going to make him better and turn him into the men.

Céline Remy 32:35
But really, when you see a guy, like, no matter how crazy you go, as a woman, he’s not affected by you. And that even knock him off, not gonna knock him off his center. Exactly. And that you can trust him, and you can like you can, then he stands for what he believes in, and he’s going to be there for you. And there’s like a whole place within yourself as a woman when you go like, yeah, I can surrender then. And I can really let go when I’m next to that person. And

Kevin Anthony 33:06
isn’t that a lot about what the little tests that women do on men are about testing that foundation? See if you can really rely on it? For sure.

Corey Kilpack 33:16
There’s a test what the fuck?

Céline Remy 33:19
There’s not one test. There are 100 1000s If

Kevin Anthony 33:24
you’ve been together for a lot of years, there’s a test. Tell me about this Dan test.

David Coates 33:32
Yeah, he’s really well defined. And he, you know, Corey uses his term in the book, like, he’s the ultimate protector, like and so you feel women often feel really safe with a man like this because they know where he stands.

David Coates 33:46
And they know that he’s got her back, and no one’s gonna mess with you when an asshole is on your side. So back, that’s those are very appealing dynamics at play. And then you’re right, women can often surrender their

Kevin Anthony 34:00
However, the problem is, is when something happens to turn him to the opposite side, you’ve got a big problem, right?

David Coates 34:07
Right, then well, then he’s just destructive, he doesn’t care you’re not safe at all. Right? So you’re under threat all the time. At the same time.

Corey Kilpack 34:18
I wouldn’t call that the opposite. I would call it the extreme. Like we use the concept of the perimeter like he’s still selfish, but now he’s out of fucking control. That is not good. That is not good. We are not giving any thumbs up to that. Those extremes are always things that we should reject.

Kevin Anthony 34:38
Yeah. And you know, something that I mentioned earlier when we spoke, which is that when you think about it, these qualities are not inherently good or bad. It’s how you use them. And like the analogy that I used was, a gun can be used to kill somebody.

Kevin Anthony 34:51
It can also be used to save somebody’s life, right? It’s not the tool itself. It’s how you use it so you can use these asshole cars. qualities for good, or you can use them for bad, right? Yep. Yeah.

Céline Remy 35:05
So I want to go into another part of the spectrum that I think we see a lot. It’s the pussy one. But before we dive into that, I want to make a short little announcement for our readers. If you want to support our show, Kevin and I have created a store where we compile handpick affiliates, products, and things that we love, and they are all helping to support you have sex life and relationship.

Céline Remy 35:33
If you purchase any of the products from us and our affiliates. It helps to support the work that we do, and ensure that we can continue to help as many people and couples as possible. So go to Céline remy.com, forward slash products to find more about the great online store that we

Kevin Anthony 35:51
have toys biohacking supplements to make you stronger and last longer. Yes. All of that horses.

Céline Remy 35:59
Okay, back to the pussy Okay. Oh, yes.

Kevin Anthony 36:04
Sorry, wrong conversation.

Céline Remy 36:08
So I see with a lot of the clients that we coach, it’s definitely one of the biggest problems that I see happening in society. And I think we can come back and talk about this epidemic that is going on, about how many men now are, because they’re going on the other end of the spectrum and get into that pussy archetypes.

Céline Remy 36:29
And in a sense, it’s very unattractive to women, we women tend to step it up. If nobody is taking the role. I think women will step into it and do it. But we’re not designed to do that properly. And it’s tiring us and then the pussy is frustrating and resentful. And that relationship kind of really sucks. So what of us? Maybe getting maybe Dave, do you have some ideas about the policy? why he’s so unattractive to women? And maybe some comments about

Kevin Anthony 36:58
that. First, first, describe to the listeners a little bit more about who the pussy is, and then why this can be a big problem.

David Coates 37:06
Corey, why did I just get the policy question? Pick it up on touch on this one. No one called me after he read the initial because the chapter that I wrote, was just sweating. He’s like, I can’t believe this guy exists. Like, is this real? Like, no, no. Like, this can’t be happening. Like it was really interesting to see your response to that guy. But yeah, listen, let me jump into the policy.

David Coates 37:40
And I’m so glad that this guy is one of the ones you wanted to focus on because he’s everywhere. And he’s everywhere. And there’s an initial appeal to the pussy because he’s a nice guy. Right? And he cares. And that’s a beautiful thing. And he’s not all about himself. He cares about other people. And he’s conscientious about what’s going on with them. So I want to start by being clear like it’s such a loaded intense word, but the pussy cares a lot. Right?

David Coates 38:06
This isn’t necessarily this isn’t a weak man. So, but he’s overly deferential. So the asshole gives you the solid thing to bump up against, he’s always there, and you always know where he stands. And the policy, he never gives you anything to push up against. He’s too afraid of upsetting you to hold and take a position. So he has learned to kind of abandon himself.

David Coates 38:29
And if you’re okay with me, then I’m okay with me. Now have you really thought about living life from that point? Like if my only goal is to have you not be mad at me? Or think I’m a good guy? Right? There’s no there there. There’s no hitting the tennis ball back and forth in a relationship. There’s no polarity, there’s no charge. So the pussy may start out as a really appealing guy, but very quickly, very quickly.

David Coates 38:53
It’s like, oh my god, like I’m having to decide again, where we’re going to dinner. Like what do you want to do? Like, you know, women want to feel men’s desire, their clarity, their passion or purpose. This guy’s unwilling to bring any of that forward because of his own wounding. So I work with a lot of men who come from this place and man and couple’s relationship and it is a lot about learning to be assertive that their power is welcome.

David Coates 39:18
Because they’ve been emasculated in their own family award gender by a culture that tells them that their desires are bad that they’re, they’re raping sex and like, you know, all this like internalized kind of male stuff that’s going around toxic masculinity, right? Toxic masculinity.

Kevin Anthony 39:35
So I’m so glad that you brought all of that stuff up. Because, you know, we would say that that’s probably the majority of men that we see in our coaching practices as well these days, most of them are coming in and you know, if I had to classify them into one of those four, I’d put him into the pussy category.

Kevin Anthony 39:51
And I think a lot of the reason that is because there is so much pressure from society that that’s who men They’re supposed to be these days, which I think is hilarious because it’s not masculine at all. It’s not what the women want. Like, if you ask women, what are looking for in a man, they don’t say that guy, they’ll say a couple of things. They want them to be kind.

Kevin Anthony 40:15
They want Him, they want him to care about their opinion and stuff like that. But when you get into the stuff that really, you know, like simple things, as you said, the dinner thing, they literally want a man to say, Okay, I’m going to take you to dinner tonight, and I’m going to take you to your favorite restaurant. That’s what they want now,

Corey Kilpack 40:33
or I’m going to I’m going to take you to my favorite restaurant.

Kevin Anthony 40:38
Could be too and here’s but here’s the key difference between, you know, say, the negative side of the asshole, and maybe more of the positive side, which is the moment she says, I don’t want to go there. He should be. Okay, I’ve got another idea. How about we try this one? Right? As opposed to the pussy guy who’s gonna go?

Kevin Anthony 40:57
Where do you want to go? And then she’ll say, I don’t know, wherever you want to go? Well, no, I want to go wherever you want to go, right? And you get into this softy wishy-washy back and forth. And ultimately, she’ll just get back. This fucking guy can’t make a goddamn decision. This is the most unattractive thing in the world.

Corey Kilpack 41:14
Yeah, I think the way they described it’s important, though, is that these characteristics, at first glance, and even in the first experience are awesome. Like, you meet a guy who seems polite and willing to defer to the decision he’s interested in what the right is learning experiences, like from the other side, like, this is all great.

Corey Kilpack 41:42
And it’s the point where you kind of at some point, you need that connection in order to build or take one more step. And Dave’s right, there’s this character who’s like, alright, you just tell me where to go, or you get what you want. And suddenly, it’s one-sided and becomes an interesting,

Kevin Anthony 42:02
you know, silly. I happen to know because I know you’re very well. I haven’t done that you like, you know, we were putting Cory on the spot about his, you know, past experience in that.

Kevin Anthony 42:12
And I know you have past experience with this to where you were in a relationship previously, before you and I, who was always focusing on whatever you wanted, you wanted, and I want you to tell the story. But tell us how it was in the beginning. And then how it changed later on.

Céline Remy 42:28
You’re right, at first, I loved it because I had just come out of another relationship that didn’t really give me attention. This man was giving me so much attention finally I was getting it and we could go into feelings and hours and hours, just all about me. And it really nourished a part of myself that was craving this type of attention and energy.

Céline Remy 42:53
But let’s say that once I got my cup filled because it served a purpose, I came into that relationship half empty, or maybe like two-thirds, whatever. And I came to a place where I’m like, Okay, I finally got whatever I’ve had been missing my whole life. Now I’m good. Let’s switch gears like I’m home now, you know, but that’s when the problem started to happen because I switched gears, but he couldn’t.

Céline Remy 43:21
And then we started to come into different scenarios where I wanted certain things or do certain things or he wanted certain things but he said I can do this because you don’t want this or do you don’t want that and I’m like that’s the old me the mean now says please go and do that please go and have sex with other women. I’m fine with that. We’re in an open relationship. Let’s do this.

Céline Remy 43:45
You know, I never say no, but I can’t because you are because that and everything was always because of something I would do or wouldn’t do. And ultimately I kind of came to a point where I was like, growth hacking pair like Like come on to like take a stance to go to your thing stop using me as an excuse because ultimately I could see that he was stuck in his own victims and limitations. And using me like that when I was like I’m not playing that game anymore.

Kevin Anthony 44:17
Basically, he wasn’t stepping up and being a strong man, and then he was turning it around and using you as the excuse well I can’t go out and build this business because I need to serve you and do things for you because you need this you need that it was always this like soft the position when what you really wanted was you really wanted him at that point to stand up and go okay, now that your whole I’ve got the steering wheel and let’s fucking go right and he just couldn’t do that.

Céline Remy 44:43
Yeah, for sure. So come back to I have the scenario but the victim that you know that place and maybe we can even take it into the bedroom because that’s a lot of the things that we work on. You know, what about the guys who saw He’s uh, he’s that nice guy. He wants to honor her. And he’s like, can I touch you? Can we have sex?

Céline Remy 45:05
How about you know, approaching his women off? Are you open to having this? It’s been so long, I’d love to have sex. And she kind of go Zack, no, not interested. I’ll do this. I’ll do that for me something else? And then he really feels utterly frustrated. Turns into anger, and resentment. I mean, so much when comes up? Like how, what do you have to say about that scenario?

David Coates 45:28
Yeah, I mean, I think that’s a lot of ways men can show victimized is, like, the deck will say like, yeah, you’re, you know, we haven’t had sex in like, like a week and a half, like, what’s going on with you? Like, I’m frustrated? What about me and what I need, what about like, your sense of responsibility, we’re in a sexual relationship. So again, that’s the position of, you’re doing something to me, and I’m the victim of you.

David Coates 45:53
And a lot of what addicts will do is on some level, he’ll say, Listen, I’m going to be obnoxious. And the best move for you right now is to fuck me. Right? Like, and if you don’t, I’m going to punish you. And I’m not going to stop. And so there’s a real power with someone I know, chorus, see your face going like that.

David Coates 46:16
But that’s often a move of the dick. It’s like, I’m going to stay in my position on the perimeter that you’re doing the wrong by, I’m annoyed, and I’m going to act out and be a fucking pain in the ass until I get what I want. And then a lot of partners of decks will learn. You just give the deck what he wants, because that’s the way to maintain peace.

David Coates 46:36
That’s the best way to move forward. But that’s the absolute worst thing to do, is to meet the deck out on the perimeter, validators victimization position, give him what he wants, and then you reinforce that behavior. So

Corey Kilpack 46:50
yeah, I think what I would say here on this topic, David, and I think it’s very important as you were talking about the deck and his victimization in this relationship, and in this case, a sexual relationship. And Dave’s describing an extreme that would almost be migrated over toward the asshole where he’s using his victimization as a threat and a weapon and as a tool.

Corey Kilpack 47:15
And, and I think your question to Dave would have migrated this closer to the pussy where the guy’s like, oh, I’m the victim, but I’m gonna give up. And I’m going to submit it. And so there’s probably a range in here, that still has a foundation in this guy, somewhere on the spectrum, looking out for himself, calling himself the victim and trying to figure out this move and to maintain continuity, change the connection. And it’s awful. It is awful.

Corey Kilpack 47:51
And one thing that Dave, and I thought he was going to bring this up here, but Dave and my wife described, Kelly described this much better than I will, is the concept of the victim, who’s telling you what I’m experiencing is your fault. I’m the victim of it. But he in the process he’s doing how do you do it, Dave? That constant, like pushing the person away, and then drawing him in?

Corey Kilpack 48:17
Yeah, and, and I’ll let David go into it. But this playback and forth is as the victim, I’m going to move you here, then I’m going to move you there. I’m going to move you here and then I’m going to move you there. And I’m going to tell you that you need to move as I’m pulling this way because as the victim I’m in charge.

Corey Kilpack 48:37
And when this becomes so personal at a level that people can have a sexual relationship, a personal relationship, a vulnerable relationship. You start wielding that you’re fucking with people. Yeah, like, Absolutely. We’re really fucking with people.

Kevin Anthony 48:53
And that’s kind of, you know, that is what Céline Because I know we were on the same page, in that question, what we really wanted to bring out was the idea of victimhood, how victimhood can be weaponized against the other person in the relationship, and how that that victimhood can span multiple of those archetypes, right, because it’s not only manifest in the one. I don’t know if there’s anything else you want to share about just that idea of victimization and how that can be used.

Corey Kilpack 49:21
No, this is a big topic for me. And the great irony is I struggled so much writing the book about the pussy. Okay, Dave had to carry the biggest load with the pussy character because to me, it was so brutal, like it was gut-wrenching, like it was just tearing me up, like I couldn’t find a way to relate to this guy.

Corey Kilpack 49:49
These characters that we were creating, like Dave, Kurt and Dave had to really carry that portion of it. And when we got to the deck, Dave and I put probably were equally passionate about it, but for different reasons. Like I was looking at the dig, saying, All right, let’s fuck this guy up. I hate him. Like, I have no fucking passion for this guy.

Corey Kilpack 50:13
Like, we are going to fuck him up and have everyone read this book and hate this guy. And they will come I mean to be like, these are real dudes doing real things in a real-world like you, like, try and figure this out with a little bit more than just smack the shit out of the guy like an asshole. Right? Am I describing this right, Dave?

David Coates 50:36
Yeah, I mean, the different characters triggered us in different ways that was part of the alchemy of the book, it’s like, we can rattle we’d get triggered, and we’d have to work shit out while writing the book. The piece I want to say about the victim, and it’s something we say in the book is, that you don’t want to meet these men on their extreme terms.

David Coates 50:56
Like if you start indulging the policy and like taking care of him and mothering him, you’re never going to do it enough to where he lands in his powerful masculine, you’re never going to apologize enough to the deck, take responsibility for his pain. So he stops being a dick, he’s just gonna want more, you’re never gonna go along with the douchebags ride and love him and help him birth his authentic expression.

David Coates 51:21
And that’s that and, you know, I wrote the book, Thinking of women as well who are in a relationship with men, like you cannot indulge this extreme behavior and think you’re gonna change it, what you can do is stay centered in yourself and say, I see what you’re doing right now, I’m not going to meet you in the conditions that you’re setting.

David Coates 51:40
I’m not going to take over responsibility for your life because see, I’m not going to play that role, you’re gonna have to come to meet me in the center, and we’re going to have a reasonable conversation about what’s actually happening, not your interpretation of what’s actually happening to the debt, I hear your story that you’re the victim. I get it. You really feel like I flirted with that guy in front of you just to humiliate you.

David Coates 52:04
I believe that that’s the story you’re telling yourself. But that’s not what happened. And we’re not going to go based on your interpretation of reality, where I did something to you at that party, and now you’re the victim and get to punish me. No, fuck, no. But I will have a conversation with you about your feelings. Because you’re hurt. And I get it. You got jealous. And I’m interested in that. But I’m not going to go along with your narrative about what happened. As though it’s the reality. That makes sense.

Corey Kilpack 52:35
Yeah, yeah, you know, I know you guys want to move on, we should. But I’m gonna hit this pretty hard here. There’s a key thing about all these characters that really stand out. Like you have this visual of the asshole like using aggression, and actually hurting someone you have this visual of the pussy, who is like just giving it all away giving up, and won’t choose where to go to dinner, for example.

Corey Kilpack 52:59
And what Dave described the dick is the most important concept of this guy, which is that he is telling you, these are the terms and conditions for being with me, for communicating with me, for connecting with me, these are the terms you will meet me when you accept that I am the victim, you will meet me when you accept that it’s your fault that the ocean is rising, you will meet me when you accept that it’s your fault.

Corey Kilpack 53:32
There are wildfires in California. Like it doesn’t matter how broad or how narrow, but the extreme and all the characters do it. But the dick with that interpretation of the world is so critical. He’s saying, This is what you must believe and accept in order to be in my world. And it is fucking rude. And it is impossible.

Céline Remy 54:00
So where do we go from there? So if our listeners are identifying themselves like yeah, I’ve been that this is yeah, I’m definitely guilty of that. What are the first step what did they do from there?

Corey Kilpack 54:23
Drink. I’m recommending like really good double scotch. Whiskey. Like, it worked for me, Dave Right. Like just more whiskey.

Kevin Anthony 54:35
And works until it doesn’t. Yeah, exactly. So that was sarcasm, by the way, for those who didn’t get enough ice just straight out of the bottle. Better medicine that way.

David Coates 54:49
That’s what you know, we wrote the book with such extreme characters and most people aren’t as extreme. It’s pretty rare to be that extreme as they are in the book. But we want people to recognize where they stand Now in their lives in our model, and we want them to get interested. So trace is the method of transformation in the book. It’s an acronym.

David Coates 55:10
So T and our triggers and reactions. Most people live alive. They’re triggered, they react, repeat, right triggers reactions, and they’re not conscious. And so TR, AC E, the AC, and the trace is awareness. Holy shit, I totally want to go into my deferential policy stance right now. I’m okay. I’m aware that it’s happening. Curious. That’s the see. And trace. Isn’t that interesting?

David Coates 55:35
Wow, isn’t that interesting? My boss just took a certain tone with me. And I’m collapsing, I’m going into this, like deferential stance like, I want to, I want to, I want to understand that as a strategy that I developed, right, like, okay, for me, it’s an older brother that was a lot bigger and stronger than me. So I’ve got a natural like, oh, shit, someone’s upset with me, I get small to stay safe.

David Coates 55:58
So I’m curious about that. And not in a shaming way. Because I want to honor that as a strategy. There’s nothing wrong with that, that helped me survive, was to learn to get kind of small in certain situations, right? And then the E and trace is experimentation like it’s time to take it to live and play with doing something different. So traces is the acronym in the book, we take the readers through that, and we take the characters through that as well.

Kevin Anthony 56:24
Yeah, that’s great. You know, normally, on the show, we like to focus a lot more on the solutions, rather than the problem. Unfortunately, your characters were and that whole discussion was so fascinating that we used up most of the Showtime talking about that.

Kevin Anthony 56:41
But I do want the listeners to know that the book isn’t just about, here’s all the bad characteristics of the four archetypes that there is great information in there on what do you do? So you heard both Dave and Corey mentioned some really key parts about, you know, what a woman can do if she’s in a relationship with one of these guys, that was a part that we talked about.

Kevin Anthony 57:04
And then you also just heard some advice on how to use the trace method. So there’s, there’s good stuff in here, if we have this is when I wish we had a Joe Rogan format of like, three fucking hours of just sitting here talking about because we

Corey Kilpack 57:17
only got three hours and a joint exactly right.

Kevin Anthony 57:21
Unfortunately, we don’t have that kind of time. So we can’t spend too much more time on that. But I did want to just sort of reinforcing that. So the listeners understand that, that there is some good information on what to do with this. So it’s not just here are the archetypes figure out how to deal with it yourself. Yeah, fuck you. It’s not like that. There’s good stuff in there.

Céline Remy 57:41
I want to briefly touch on one more question before we get to our last juicy question, which is about how can women identify that a man is one of these before she fucks him? Because, you know, once we have sex, this is this, this whole bonding thing that happens we become blind, and then we think we can change him and then, you know, then we months or years later and like fuck, nothing has changed. So maybe do you have any words of wisdom there for our women listeners and what they can do?

David Coates 58:11
Yeah, let me take a shot at this because we kind of end the book with like, the essential qualities that you can pull out of these four men that are great. So I’m gonna break it down briefly. Right? Aggression is shitty. The assholes. Aggression is shitty, but the assertion is necessary for a dynamic relationship. Can this man be assertive? Can he bring himself forward?

David Coates 58:33
Can he penetrate me energetically with his opinions? With his you know, you know what I’m talking about? Like, can he do that? That’s the gift of scanning. That’s the gift of the asshole. Right? Is assertion. Now, can he also surrender? Can he take me in? Is he being impacted and penetrated by me like a pussy, a submissive? But surrender is a superpower?

David Coates 58:59
Can he take me in? Alright, assertion, surrender, good contact, self-knowledge? Is he interested in himself? Is he paying attention to where his blind spots are? Does he want to grow? Does he want to become more than he is? Is he self-aware? It’s another nice quality to be tracking for. And in service is the final one. Which is like, is the serving something higher than himself is he interested in a ride that’s bigger than him?

David Coates 59:25
So he’s assertive, he can surrender. He’s, he’s building self-knowledge and he’s serving something larger and like those four qualities is what we came up with at the end that you can extract from these four guys. And it makes for a really dynamic human being to be in a relationship with.

Kevin Anthony 59:42
And so if you’re a woman, you want to look at those and figure out which one of these is he showing up as Right.

Corey Kilpack 59:49
And, you know, I don’t think this is impossible. As you know, silliness to fun questions are interesting and funny questions, but it’s a real question. And you people have to put themselves in a situation like, am I going into this tonight? I just met this guy or like, how vulnerable do I want to be and understand like, if you’re going into something on a one-hour notice you’re really vulnerable? And chances are you don’t know.

Corey Kilpack 1:00:17
And chances are you’re going to make a mistake, or you’re going to figure it out after you really expose yourself to something. And so what I would say to answer your question is for women to understand what the hell it is they want, and acknowledge and surrender to their own circumstances.

Corey Kilpack 1:00:39
And they need to know if they’re going into this too early without having some visibility of what they’re getting into. deal with that. Those are the fucking facts. And the way to move beyond that, and not just rolled dice, is to look at a book like this, have conversations like this, meet people who can talk about it like this, and understand that people are real.

Corey Kilpack 1:01:06
And they will break down, they will rise up, they will show up if you give them a chance. And you have to do the same. And you want another chance. Go ahead.

David Coates 1:01:20
Yeah. And I would say just No, no, where you’re nowhere you get hooked. Like if you get hooked by a douchebag and his flashy image thing, and that turns you on. Right, you have to know that about yourself. Right? Like this guy is a big shot, like, and you’re already turned on because he’s got he’s like a high-status male.

David Coates 1:01:38
And if you fuck that guy based on that before you figure out who he really is, you’re signing up for a ride, you probably don’t really want to be on. So know your own hooks. If you get hooked on the like the wounded victim, the guy and dicks are very seductive, like, I’m going to be the one that’s finally going to love this guy.

David Coates 1:01:54
And then he’s going to be this really great guy, and he’s going to stop being a victim of pain in the ass. You got to know that going in. I got hooks for this, my turn-on is connected to this. And you have to resist that impulse that just follows that, that love templating. And just and then hang back. See reality clearly is what I would say.

Corey Kilpack 1:02:17
Its rendering of the facts is just a core. And a key part of that. And this way, we talked about the pussy. And I’ve made it very clear in the book, this guy is not weak. He quite possibly pounds for pound, the fucking strongest guy in that book because he can give everything away and stand up and get up and do it again tomorrow and give it all away again like he this is not weakness, this is an incredible strength is just weird.

Corey Kilpack 1:02:48
And it’s just, that it’s not sustainable. Having the core aspects of the policy, and being able to look out for other people’s interests, is a wonderful, awesome thing. And having the ability to be conscientious of other people’s experiences, is an awesome thing.

Corey Kilpack 1:03:13
And if you can surrender to what you’re really giving up and what they’re really experiencing, including early in the stages of a relationship, just talking about it is valuable, and will keep you out of the ditch a little bit more. And we look, we’ll probably all end up in a ditch again, who knows?

Corey Kilpack 1:03:33
I’m trying to we’re trying to get people to a point where they can understand who they are, what they are, and make a better decision, including an early decision, which I believe was your question, right?

Kevin Anthony 1:03:46
Yes. So that is fantastic advice. Before we ask our last question, however, please tell the listeners wherever they can find your book or anything else that you guys want to promote. Because, you know, even though we’ve talked a lot about what’s in here, there’s still so much more. So if they’re interested in this conversation, they should really get the book and read deeper into it. So tell them about that.

Corey Kilpack 1:04:13
Gotcha. The best place to find this is because we’re not on social media. Savvy like everyone else. We’re present. I’m on Twitter at Cory Kilpatrick. But the best place to get us is www.beLess dickish.com. We have links to Amazon. We’re also on Audible.

Corey Kilpack 1:04:34
We had a pretty good Narrator read the book. So there are samples of the book you can listen to and read. There are explanations of the graphics and the model in there are links to there’ll be a link to this podcast so www.beLessdickish.com is the best place.

Céline Remy 1:04:57
Awesome and we’ll have the link in the description below. And I also want to say for everyone listening that, you know, Cory claimed to have been in Nassau, and obviously he’s evolved. So, you know, don’t be so worried. If you notice yourself stuck in patterns you can get out of there. It is possible Cory is a living example of it.

Kevin Anthony 1:05:17
And this book can help you do that. Okay, so our very last question and you each get a chance to answer your own answer for this, which we asked all of the guests on our show. What is your best sexual talent? Who would like to go first?

David Coates 1:05:39
That’s a new one.

Corey Kilpack 1:05:42
Oh, wow. Let’s get a brag on this one.

Kevin Anthony 1:05:45
Yeah, whatever you want. Yeah.

Corey Kilpack 1:05:49
All right. I’m going with I’m gonna go with the two-finger magic trick creating a goddamn fountain. Keep your nose above water.

Kevin Anthony 1:06:04
a good skill to have

David Coates 1:06:09
sent this question. That was a good one because that was the last thing I expected. Yes. All right. This one I don’t talk about this one a lot that  I am like, I’m masterful at a certain kind of like pelvic massage like all those spaces around the vagina.

David Coates 1:06:34
And around the sacrum, like I just love, like finding the crevices and the spots and those sensitive areas and like massaging that part of the female body. Cool. Well, those

Kevin Anthony 1:06:45
are both great answers.

Céline Remy 1:06:47
Thank you guys for sharing. Yeah.

Kevin Anthony 1:06:57
Well, thank you, Dave, and Corey for coming on the show. It was a great conversation. As I said, I wish that we had more time. I want to thank you both. Also, we had a little bit of a timing snafu due to some technical issues. And if you haven’t noticed, if you’re watching the video, David’s joining us from halfway around the world so and

Céline Remy 1:07:15
it’s like way past midnight, like way into like 2 am. And he’s like showing up for this for us. So thank you.

Kevin Anthony 1:07:23
Thank you for dealing with all of that and still making it on the show and having a great conversation.

Corey Kilpack 1:07:28
This has been fun. Thank you.

David Coates 1:07:30
You guys are great, just super professional and clear and fine, and really, really want to honor what you guys are doing and putting out into the world. It’s bold, and it’s fucking needed. So thank you for doing what you’re doing.

Corey Kilpack 1:07:42
Let’s do it again.

Kevin Anthony 1:07:45
All right. Thanks again, guys. We appreciate it. All right, everybody. That’s all the time we have for this episode. And we will see you next week. We hope you liked this episode of the Love Lab podcast. If you enjoy this show, subscribe. Leave us a review and share it with your friends.

Céline Remy 1:08:05
And for more free exclusive content. Join us in the passion vault at kevinandceline.com/vault.

Kevin Anthony 1:08:19
Thanks for listening. And remember,

Céline Remy 1:08:21
you’re amazing